Apostles' Creed A.D. 100 - A.D. 800 Subscribe   
  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/19/2001 12:01 pm  
To:  ALL   (1 of 7)  
 
  138.1  
 
Source 
http://www.creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm 
The Apostles' Creed 100 A.D. - 800 A.D. 

The Symbolum Apostolorum was developed between the second and ninth centuries. It is the most popular creed used in worship by Western Christians. Its central doctrines are those of the Trinity and God the Creator. 

Legend has it that the Apostles wrote this creed on the tenth day after Christ's ascension into heaven. That is not the case, though the name stuck. However, each of the doctrines found in the creed can be traced to statements current in the apostolic period. The earliest written version of the creed is perhaps the Interrogatory Creed of Hippolytus (ca. A.D. 215). The current form is first found in the writings of Caesarius of Arles (d 542). 

The creed was apparently used as a summary of Christian doctrine for baptismal candidates in the churches of Rome. Hence it is also known as The Roman Symbol. As in Hippolytus' version it was given in question and answer format with the baptismal candidates answering in the affirmative that they believed each statement. 

Modern English Version 
I believe in God, the Father almighty, 
creator of heaven and earth. 

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord, 
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, 
born of the Virgin Mary, 
suffered under Potius Pilate, 
was crucified, died, and was buried; 
he descended to the dead. 
On the third day he rose again; 
he ascended into heaven, 
he is seated at the right hand of the Father, 
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead. 

I believe in the Holy Spirit, 
the holy catholic church, 
the communion of saints, 
the forgiveness of sins, 
the resurrection of the body, 
and the life everlasting. 
AMEN. 

Traditional English Version 
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. 

And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. 

I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. 
AMEN. 

Latin Text (ca. A.D. 700) 
Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem; Creatorem coeli et terrae. 

Et in Jesum Christum, Filium ejus unicum, Dominum nostrum; qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto, natus ex Maria virgine; passus sub Pontio Pilato, crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus; descendit ad inferna; tertia die resurrexit a mortuis; ascendit ad coelos; sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis; inde venturus (est) judicare vivos et mortuos. 

Credo in Spiritum Sanctum; sanctam ecclesiam catholicam; sanctorum communionem; remissionem peccatorum; carnis resurrectionem; vitam oeternam. 
Amen. 





David A. Brown
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  From:  wknight001   7/19/2001 7:08 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (2 of 7)  
 
  138.2 in reply to 138.1  
 
Dear David, 
What does the Creed mean to you when it says, 'the communion of saints'? 

Sincerely, 

J.T. 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/20/2001 12:16 pm  
To:  wknight001   (3 of 7)  
 
  138.3 in reply to 138.2  
 
Hi,
I have mostly considered the Communion to mean fellowship with God and with fellow Christians. Your post made me rethink this as I think you are refrencing communion in context with the Bread and Wine communion. But then all communion is fellowship and all fellowship stems from the cross of Jesus, which the bread and wine represent.

I think the cross is specifically a symble of Reconciliation. The cross is vertical for reconciliation vertically between God and Man. And the Cross is horizontal for reconciliation horizontally people with people.

Fellowship  Communion is truly a Blessing only Christians partake in.

Fellowship / Koinonia
Koinonia (2842) participation, interaction, communication, fellowship, interaction among friends
Verses - Psalm 94:20 Acts 2:42 1Cor 1:9 2Cor 6:14 Phlip 1:5, 2:1, 3:10 1John 1:3,6,7
First use: Leviticus 6:2 If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbor in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbor;.. Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty,..

The Greek word Koinonia is used for both English words Communion and Fellowship.

Fellowship is friendship. Friendship is a rare gift, given to us by God from the cross of Jesus. If there wasnt the cross of Jesus then there would be no such thing as friendship. Mankind would still be at enmity with God, and mankind would be at enmity with each other. Mankind without God is incapable of friendship. Without God, man could never fully view another human as a friend. There would always be the possibility that fellow man would cease to be a friend and become a competitor, a threat, a danger, even an enemy, instead of a friend. As a competitor, competing for materials and resources that are needed to sustain life. With God we know that it is God that sustains our existence and our life. God is completely capable to take care of us in any situation. Relying on God frees us up to have friendship (Koinonia) with God and with people.






David A. Brown
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  From:  wknight001   7/21/2001 1:52 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (4 of 7)  
 
  138.4 in reply to 138.3  
 
Actually I was thinking of both, but most specifically prayers and intercessions of the saints. But I wanted to see what someone who took the creed out of the Church did to it with that. 
Sincerely, 

J.T.D.W. 

 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/21/2001 11:00 am  
To:  wknight001   (5 of 7)  
 
  138.5 in reply to 138.4  
 
WKNIGHT001 wrote:
prayers and intercessions of the saints.
  What's the deal with this, anyway?  What is the Catholic belief about saints, prayers to them, and their supposed intercession?  It's possible that I've been fooled by yet another piece of deceitful anti-Catholic propaganda, but the (possibly mistaken) understanding I have of this is very far removed from anything stated in, or supportable by the Bible.

  Do Catholics really pray to saints, rather than to God?  And do Catholics really believe that these saints are in a position to answer prayers?  And what is the origin of this belief?



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/21/2001 7:58 pm  
To:  wknight001   (6 of 7)  
 
  138.6 in reply to 138.2  
 
Hi,
I have to admit that it never occurred to me to think of a saint as only a select group of Christians.

My thinking is that all Christians are saints, as in saints are the people trusting in Jesus for the full Atonement of our sins and therefore we are now cleansed of any sin and being cleansed of sin we are saints and being saints we are children of God.

I am doing a quick word study of the word Saint in the Bible and it looks very much like saint and Christian are used interchangeably.

Really there are only two groups of people Saints and Sinners.
To use an old phrase you are either a Saint or you aint!

Saint (40) Greek  Hagios; holy, set apart, sanctified, cleansed, chaste, disciplined, well behaved

Here are a couple of the Bible verses I am looking at.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of Peace, as in All Churches of the Saints.

Jude 1:3 Beloved when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common Salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and Exhort you that ye should Earnestly Contend for the Faith which was once delivered unto the Saints.

The Saints are the ones who have the Faith. The faith that was delivered unto the Church is the Resurrection of Jesus. To believe in the Resurrection of Jesus is to have Christian Faith.

Ephesians 1:15,16 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and Love unto all the Saints.

Philippians 1:1 .. to al the Saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi.






David A. Brown
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   From:  wknight001   7/21/2001 11:32 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock) unread  (7 of 7)  
 
  138.7 in reply to 138.5  
 
Ah. To a Catholic the term 'saint' applies to all Christians, but it applies especially to those already in Heaven, who have proven themselves especial examples of the faith. 
Since the very beginning Christians have gathered about these, and built their altars upon the sites of the martyrs. 

The Communion of Saints is the Body of Christ, a body which is not restricted or prevented from loving all its members. -God does not forbid those in Heaven to pray for us on Earth.- It would be against charity to do so, truly, and against free will. 

If you want to learn more about the saints, read the Early Church Fathers online at www.newadvent.org or CCEL. As well as pick up a book written by one, such as 'Story of A Soul" St. Therese of Liseux's autobiography, or St. John of the Cross, or St. Theresa of Avila. Should give you a good idea of how, when you have the fullness of the faith, you can advance in grace. Miracles surround them, past and present. 

For Catholics--Life is about conversion. And the aid the Church gives for it produces some marvels. Saints are often views as 'suspended between Heaven and Earth'. 

For Catholics the Word of God is spoken and written, and has never died away that way--Always been handed down that way, and cannot change. Since for Catholics the Bible came out of the Church--The Bible does not contain the entirety of revelation, nor is it intended to, or be a manual, etc. in and of itself. It is only as reliable as its interpreter, which is the Church 'the pillar and foundation of all truth' (1 Tim 3:15). 

Prayers to the saints have been there from the beginning, and were at the councils. If you think it unbiblical, read the justifications given for it on one of the apologetics sites, say http://ic.net/~erasmus/ERASMUS5.HTM and discuss it with me. 

I suppose if you want to believe in miracles you could consider the fact that the Church has always prayed through Christ for the saints to pray for them in Heaven, and miracles and good things have occured through this, for example, Lourdes. That and if you wish to delve into Church history for a Church that has never altered its moral dogmas to contradict previous belief, and you may want to open your eyes to the Bible and undying Word in a different way. 

For a quick Biblical justification for prayers to the saints (which are always through God--If He wishes them heard, they're heard), try: 

Rev 5:8 angels offer prayers of the holy ones to God 
Rev 6:9-11 martys under the altar want earthly vindication 
Mk 9:4 Jesus seen conversing with Elijah and Moses 
Heb 12:1 we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses 

Or go to the Old Testament: 

Psalm 103 you pray "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). 

Psalm 148 you pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2) 

Now, if you believe in guardian angels.. as they protect the little ones, you know, and at the same time behold God in Heaven--You can ask your angel to pray for you, and you can ask your angel to take your prayers to God in Heaven and present them there. 

When you're a Catholic you're perfectly free to go to the grave of a loved one and pray for the repose of your father's soul, and ask for him to pray for you in Heaven. 

There's nothing of 'worship' about praying to the saints. It's quite clear who is God and who is not. It's all about love. And Communion. And being made one Body through the Eucharist (Christ) and the Church. 

Sincerely, 

Jeffrey T.D. Wiater 




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Edited 7/22/01 2:35:25 AM ET by WKNIGHT001 
  
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